Episode 1: Opportunity

Introducing The Lead Story, exploring the qualities of positive leadership with people who’ve worked their way up, find ways to inspire, and continue to mentor new leaders. 

My first guest is Paul Downing who worked globally in the hospitality industry for over 40 years, starting in the kitchen and finishing as an in-demand consultant taking care of luxury hotels all over the world. He's mentored scores of people in the industry and continues to mentor me through my career, despite my leaving the hotel business a good 15 years ago (his being my dad may have something to do with his dedication). 

I anticipate many more chats with Paul but for this first episode we'll explore his career path and the theme of OPPORTUNITY – his response to the chances given by leaders who believed in him and how he forged many opportunities not only for himself but the teams he led and motivated along the way.

"The Lead Story" episodes 1-5 + 4 Sini-Mini's are available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts and other podcast platforms.

Transcript

The Lead Story - Episode 1 - Opportunity - with Paul Downing 

Sini: [00:00:00] The Lead Story exploring positive leadership. Hi, this is Sini Downing. I'm excited to start this new podcast, the Lead Story, exploring the qualities of successful leadership with people who work their way up, find ways to inspire and continue to mentor new leaders. In this first episode, I'll be to my primary mentor and for future episodes, I look forward to chatting with a variety of people in various industries about leadership.

Sini: In my day job, I work with a fantastic team of audio and production professionals producing performances for video games. I'm Head of Studio and still very much on my journey of learning to be a good leader. Before we start, I do want to mention that while I work with audio professionals, this podcast is homemade, so any sound issues are very much my own.

Sini: Right. Let's get started. My very first guest worked in the hospitality industry for over 40 years. 30 of those with Marriott International, and he certainly went international. He travelled the globe working in exotic and exciting locations such as Switzerland, Jordan, London, Los Angeles, Bermuda, Hong Kong, Dubai, Dublin, Nairobi, the Grand Caymans, and Venice.

Sini: Along the way, he raised two daughters with his lovely and very supportive wife, Kaija. And [00:03:00] mentored a lot of people, many whom still turn to him for advice. He continues to mentor me through my career. He's also my dad. Welcome Paul Downing. Hi, Dad. 

Paul: Hi, Sini. 

Sini: Today we're going to focus on opportunity while also getting to know a bit about your career path.

Sini: So, let's start from the beginning. Where are you from?

Paul: I was born in Bridgwater, in Somerset. 

Sini: Where did the interest for cooking and hospitality come from? 

Paul:  That was from my godparents, my auntie and uncle. And they had a small hotel in Ilfracombe, north Devon. And during my summer vacation I would go there and,, well live with them in the hotel.

Paul: And I absolutely loved the fact that they weren't doing a nine to five job. And, they took the afternoons off so we could go places and that sort of thing. But I would then help out in the kitchen washing up and doing those sorts of tasks. But I just love that whole lifestyle that they had and got me intrigued by [00:04:00] it.

Paul: And later I found myself in the industry.

Sini: Yeah. So, what was the reaction from your parents when you said you wanted to go to catering school? 

Paul: Yeah, catering school. No, they were, they were fine with it. I mean, to be honest with you,, when I came out of the, the Navy, , they were quite happy for me to be a postman or something like that. And,, I wanted to certainly get out of my town where I was born. I wanted to see a little more of the world and that sort of thing. And I thought certainly being in the hotel business would gimme that opportunity. So they didn't have any issue with me going off to,, to spend two years in college. 

Sini: And what, what was the goal initially? Was it to get to London? Did, did you know that there was a bigger world out there? 

Paul:  I knew there was a bigger world, but I also knew to be successful. , I needed to spend time, certainly I thought a good amount of time, and I was [00:05:00] sort of thinking at least five years in the kitchen. And then I also needed to spend a number of years, , in France or Switzerland because during that time when I was starting out, the reputation of the Brits in the kitchen was not great.

Paul:  It's completely changed today. But I needed to go and learn classical French cooking, for example, and that's why I spent time in Switzerland and France. 

Sini: Right. Okay. So Is, is that sort of where it came from? You know, I would say that it, it's a wanderlust you really, you wanted to continue on and see more and more of the world as it went. Did that grow as the time went on, or how did that go? 

Paul:  Yeah, I, I really wanted to, to, to travel and, , I found different ways of doing that. So, at one time I joined the QE 2, , and that was when she was first launched. This is the first QE 2, so, going back a number of years now, the one which is now in Dubai.[00:06:00] 

Paul:  And , yes, I spent, , an exciting time on there, , either doing the transatlantic runs or then based in, , in New York. 

Sini: When you were on the QE 2, were you seeing more opportunities there or was that just going to be your sort of first stop? Did you think, oh, I could spend quite a lot of time on this ship, or in the Merchant Navy, I guess it's called. Or was it No, I'm gonna go to a hotel at some point, or...

Paul: No, I definitely knew that this was more of a short-term thing, so I enjoyed, , cruising. We cruised in the Caribbean and so on, but. , after nine months, I, I knew that as much as I enjoyed it, this was not gonna be the life for me. So that's when I ended up getting a job, my first job in Switzerland.

And, , that was a very interesting time as well, because I met your mother there. Kaija. 

Sini: The kitchen, from what I understand, is quite hierarchical, right? 

Paul:  Mm-hmm. 

Sini: As, as is a ship, you have a captain. And then [00:07:00] how does. How does that work in terms of, , leading teaching, , teaching, learning from a teacher? You know, from what I can tell, it is really sort of set up that you are going to, to move up those levels and learn, learn almost at, not quite apprentice, but sort of learn in different levels, right? 

Paul: Absolutely. I mean, in the classical kitchen you would have. , different sections. So, you'd have meat and sauce and grill and, , cold prep or garde manger they would call it.

And my, , objective was to make sure I was working in all these different areas to learn as much as I could when I was in Switzerland. And then from there, I, I wanted to go to, , France and I ended up getting actually a, a job in Hôtel de Paris in Monte-Carlo, which was. Quite a dream cause this is an iconic hotel and I knew I could then learn a lot more there.

Sini: And that worked, sort of, that , yes chef, you know, you're, you're following your leader, whether that's in your section of [00:08:00] the kitchen or then going up to exec chef. So is that something that you think. Is it a good way to, to run a department, a, a company? Or does it work for certain, certain things or how, what do you think?

Paul:  , Well certainly in a larger kitchen. I think that structure works really well. I mean, I've also had, I run a smaller kitchen where we only, we were only seven of us. Um, so the structure is obviously not, not as complex, but in a larger kitchen. I found that the, , The different departments and the different levels, , worked really well and you, you know, as, as you were learning more than, , and you were performing well, then you would slowly work your way up.

And that's what I did. I mean, I was, , able to work my way up through Demi Chef Chef de Partie and sous chef and then executive chef. 

Sini: Did that work for motivation as well? 

Paul:  , yeah, it did. , I have to say it was never from a monetary point of view. It was just the, , the [00:09:00] hunger I think, of learning and not only just learning how to cook, but also going to different countries and starting to learn the way that people would cook in those different countries. That became appealing as well, and , but strangely enough, it was never money driven. Certainly not in the beginning anyway. 

Sini: So let's talk about the Crown Inn. You were, I'm guessing that's your, your smaller kitchen

Paul:  Yep. That's correct. 

Sini: You guys are doing really well. I think you were even going towards Michelin star. I mean, this was, this was good cooking. 

Paul: Mm-hmm. 

Sini: You then suddenly made this big jump to go, I'm guessing down sort of in position in kitchen, but in a much, much bigger kitchen joining an American international hotel company. What, what was, you know, what made you make that choice? 

Paul: Quite simply that I certainly had ambitions to take the Crown, , into, , an expansion, let's say, because I [00:10:00] found, , a place where we could open another restaurant in Guildford, and I went to the owner and how it would all work. But I could see that he was much more focused now on developing software for the food and beverage industry and that sort of thing. And I realized then there was no growth, so I needed to do something else. And so I got this opportunity to go to Amman in Jordan, but then as a sous chef, so I had to step down to take that position, but I was in a much bigger organization.

Sini: What was that like working in a different country again? I mean, obviously you'd done international kitchens, but. This is now a few years later, it's in an American run company. What was that kitchen like? 

Paul: Quite a surprise, to be honest. And the reason was that when I went there, , I decided that I would do whatever they wanted me to do because I was trying to fit in to this, this big organization. So I did that and I was asked to open up the specialty restaurant [00:11:00] and, , As we were opening the hotel cuz it was brand new. And I did that basically following what the executive chef was telling me to do and gave me the, the menus that I had to prepare with my team. 
 
But then the person who hired me in London, , came and was totally shocked by what we were doing and he, he then said to the executive chef, I want you to let Paul do what he feels is right for this restaurant, because I don't want all the American stuff here because it may not necessarily work in Amman Jordan.So at that point, I had that freedom to start creating what I felt was the right thing to do, and I never look back. 

Sini: Wow. So that was really someone. Who had had the power to giving you the opportunity to spread your wings? What do you think they were seeing in you that they said to give you free rein? Really? [00:12:00] 

Paul:  Well, the, the gentleman in question actually came to the restaurant in Surrey, um, one Sunday, and it was just happened to be one of the busiest days we, we had ever had. And, , he could see the way the restaurant was working, the quality of the food and everything else. And I guess he felt that this was what he wanted to put into the, to the hotel in Amman, Jordan. So when he came and found that I basically was doing prime rib, prime rib and baked potatoes and that sort of thing, I mean, that's typically what Americans like, which is fine, but that's not what he felt was correct for that market.

Sini: Mm-hmm. 

Paul:: And that's why he wanted me to change everything. Which I did and, and it started to work quite well.

Sini: Okay. So you've been given a bit more free rein. So then how do you start staffing your kitchen? 

Paul:  Well, when the hotel was opened, , they actually brought in a number of people from Asia and we, we did have a lot of local people that were untrained. They were, at that time there was no [00:13:00] hotel school, so we basically had to train them. So I developed a, a course that they had to follow. And we took people that had no, , kitchen experience or no hotel experience and started to develop them by giving them practical training in the different sections of the kitchen, which I talked about earlier. And also giving them some theory, which we gave them books to help them to understand.

And it was quite, Something when the first person completed this, this course, and I think he took him four months and he used to come in on his days off to do extra work without being paid just so that he could learn. And when he graduated, the first thing I did was to give him a set of knives, which was gonna be his tools for his trade, which also motivated others. And 15 years later, when I was vice president of operations, For the Middle Eastern Africa. I walked back into the [00:14:00] hotel and Who do you think was the executive chef? My first student. 

Sini: Wow. 

Paul:  Yeah. It was a goosebump moment, to be quite honest. I was so proud of what he had accomplished. 

Sini: That's amazing. And obviously, you know, there, there's, so, there's theory, there's practical, , I'm assuming that everyone's getting to eat, eat the product as well, which is a bonus in, in working in a kitchen. , were they trying each other's things? How, how were you then motivating, I mean, obviously giving the chef , his, his set of knives is, amazing, but how were you motivating the next people and sort of showing them this is where we're going?

Paul: I think as well, by this time, I was already executive chef. I'd moved up position and the other executive chef had moved on. So again, I had more control over everything and began to realize that we needed to. Bring in other expertise. So I ended up hiring an Arabic pastry chef, and I also, , hired an Arabic chef. So somebody who had the skills that these two people could [00:15:00] also start teaching more of the traditional, , foods, which I wasn't so familiar with, but we brought in the experts to do that.

And I think the, the local people were seeing that this is not just a, a hotel company moving in and. Doing what they did in the states and just replicating it in a, in Amman. We were embracing the local culture and bringing in the expertise to teach the locals how, how to produce food that they, the local community wanted. And also the tourist, whoever stayed, whether it's businessmen or tourists, , I think very often they were, , excited to try local foods as well.

Sini: Mm-hmm. 

Paul:  And, , I think all of this is a combination of things. That really started to, , bring in a great team, team within, within the kitchen, a team, atmosphere and motivated a lot of people.

Sini: Yeah. We're gonna go into, into mentorship and training, , in, in future chats. Mm-hmm. , but talking [00:16:00] about, , opportunities, I think you often were creating your own. So let's talk about the theme themed events, doing some really big ones in, in, in Jordan. How did that come about? How did you sort of start pushing the limit to, to that going, Hey, I want to go bigger, more comfortable outside of the hotel, et cetera.

Paul: We had an opportunity to, to do, , a wedding and, , I sat with the bride or potential bride and just chatted with her to try and understand what she would like her wedding to be. She really started to express that she really wanted to be Cinderella or something from that fairy tale. So I ended up, , putting together a, a Cinderella theme really. And I commissioned a, an artist who I was. , advised could do a particular good job for us, and he did some backdrops for us. So we, we, we, we initially, we did some smaller paintings and that sort of thing before we did the backdrops. But anyway, [00:17:00] created this, this whole theme and I was then going to go with the director of catering to the person's home to present it.

And before I left the general manager of the hotel. I was curious what we were going to do. So I gave him a quick explanation and then he said, well, how much is this gonna cost? And I gave him a number, which was unbelievable. It was a huge number. And he just said, please don't present this. Do not present this number. Do not present this theme. , because it's far, far too much, we're, gonna lose the business. So I went with the director of catering and I presented my theme as it was, and as I started to describe it, I could see the family were getting quite excited, and I was on the right track. And then finally the father asked me, he said, well, what's this gonna cost? And I gave him the number, and suddenly the wife started to scream, you know, this is crazy, she said, you know, take out [00:18:00] this and take out that. And suddenly the father said to the wife, This man is an artist. Would you commission a painting and leave the right hand corner out? So he said, how much do you need to get this going?

And I said, sir, I need 50%. He gave me a check there and there. And this was the beginning of our themed events. 

Sini: Wow. So you obviously got the buy-in from the path of the bride. Then obviously, I'm assuming you had to go back to the GM and go, by the way, sold it. 

Paul:  I didn't, 

Sini: Not in a told you so thing, but going this, this is, this is, I want, in addition to the restaurants that we're running, this is the thing that I want to do as well.

Paul: Well, I, I, I think this became very apparent. First of all, I have to make sure we could deliver what we just sold. And there were no theme in companies, so this wasn't somewhere you could pick up the phone and call someone and you would get all the props and the themes and so on. Everything you were gonna do, you had to make. [00:19:00] So that's why I mentioned earlier about this particular artist who then did some huge backdrops, , themes from Cinderella. But then I had an amazing, , director of engineering with a fantastic team, , carpenters and what have you. And they, they put together a fountain, which I designed and, and various things. And also we were planning to bring the wedding cake out of the ceiling, which had never been seen before to make it a, a very dramatic thing. But this leaked into the press, so I had to change the whole thing. So I then came up with a golden carriage and. I went to my director of engineering. He said, I can build a carriage, but you know, the wheels are gonna be a challenge.And I couldn't find any old wheels in Amman. So I went downtown to the area where you have a lot of craftspeople and walked through the back alleys, and I found some [00:20:00] carpenters down there and not being able to speak Arabic at that time, and they couldn't speak English. I had to show 'them a sketch of what I wanted. And he then put on a leithe and made the spokes of the wheels. So I went back a week later, picked up the spokes, went to my director of engineering and said, okay, here are the spokes. You go now make wheels, which he did. And he ended up making this fantastic golden carriage. And the wedding cake was quite spectacular as well. But I was looking for golden cupids. And believe it or not, I was in on vacation in Finland with my wife. And I found the golden Cupids that I was looking for in Finland. So over the months, this whole themed wedding came together and it sort of made a benchmark of where, where we had to perform going forward, because the people who came to that wedding, they could never just do a simple wedding from them forward.So it really set the, , the scene of what we're gonna do [00:21:00] for the future. 

Sini: So obviously it was good for business, good for business, but it's fun as well, at least for people like us. You know, I obviously then went into theming things for TV and for hotels as well, but how did you get the buy-in from people who, you know, from, from your colleagues who perhaps wanted to stay in the safe zone, you know, going, why? Why does it have to be this way? How do you motivate? How do you get on board those people who are perhaps going. I, I don't get this, I don't get this. Why we're going out, out, out of that, out of the box so much. 

Paul:  Just do it and then ask for forgiveness. That was basically the way I did things because if I was trying to explain this, yeah, there would be hesitation most likely because there is that always risk of, of failing. But then when we, when we were successful on the first one, no other hotel seemed to be able to replicate what we were doing. Cause we never did the same theme twice. So, as I was [00:22:00] saying, because of the people that were invited, they were very often the same people coming to various events. 

Sini: Mm-hmm. 

Paul:  So it always had to be different. So the creativity had to be always something very new. Which made it exciting as well. 

Sini: Absolutely. But it also made it exciting for people like the engineers. 

Okay, so you make it to executive chef in, in Jordan and then do quite another big move. You're coming out of the kitchen into a suit, which I know is always a big jump. , moving back to the first, uh, Marriott Hotel in, in London, 

Paul:  correct. ,

Sini: as director of Food and Beverage. 

Paul:  That's right. 

Sini: How did you approach that, that move, because it is pretty big to take off the chef whites and get into a suit and, 

Paul:  yeah, no, you're quite right. I mean, by this time I knew where I wanted to go, and that was to be the the regional director of operations, that was sort of my goal. Now, the person who [00:23:00] hired me, he had then moved on and a different gentleman came in and I, I then told him my next step, I really want to be director of food and beverage, and he said, there's a position to open up in London. And I'd like you to, to go there. And, , I said, but I haven't done any cross-training. And he said, what, what you've done here in Amman was basically the cross-training. So you can. I feel confident you can do the job, so you're quite right. I, I took off my whites on the Friday. We flew with a family to, to London on a Monday. I put a suit on and started work as director food beverage at the London Marriott Hotel.

Sini: Let's pause for a second because, you know, he was seen saying there where, because you'd been pushing all these boundaries and doing all these different things, you were already preparing for your next role. Is that something that you feel that. You know, does happen when you are going out and making your own opportunities is you're actually upskilling even if you don't actually know what that role is yet. Or [00:24:00] I guess in your mind, you, you did know sort of where you were going, but you, you didn't really know that you were already cross-training, right? 

Paul: No, that, that's a good point. I mean, Basically the people that I was mentoring, I would always say to them, try and work at the level above you, but without undermining, of course, the person that's responsible, but in other words, you are, you are thinking ahead or you're, you are trying, trying to think, well, what would that person do in that position so that you can help them, but at the same time help with your own development. So don't just always think about the job that you're, the level that you're at. What would you be doing if you're on the next level? But again, by doing that, don't ever undermine your, your, your supervisor or manager, right? 

Sini: So let's talk about you're, you're in London, you're in the suit. You're obviously having to get used to everything else, but we weren't in London for very long, and you did quite a lot, including really the, [00:25:00] the sort of next thing that I remember you bringing in, which was. Festivals or celebrations of other countries or regions in, in that location. So in London it was about bringing in California cuisine and wines. How did you approach that? How did you start that? How did you get the buy-in from both the people who had to approve the budget and the people who were gonna be involved, for instance, the exec chef, how was that all sort of approached?

Paul:, well, before I get into that bit about the California cuisine, when I arrived, there was the franchise owners meeting happening and the team had already done a lot of work and they, they put together some, some themes for them for breakfast and lunches and dinners and what have you. And the last breakfast was gonna be breakfast on the moon., I looked at it, I said, look, guys, this looks fantastic. It all looks great. But I think what we need is a satellite. So then the director of catering said to me, well, where are we gonna get a satellite? So I picked up the phone, I called [00:26:00] AT&T in the US and explained what we were doing, and I'd like to have a satellite. And guess what? They sent me a replica of a, life size satellite. So Breakfast on the Moon was quite spectacular. 

So that was, that was the first step of trying to. Show the team that we can step out of the box to, to, you know, do things a little bit different. But, , then I was looking at the, the incredible competition in London and what could we do to attract more, more people into our restaurant? So, , the vice president of operations at the time mentioned, he said, well, there's a thing happening now in California called California cuisine, and seems to be going pretty well over there. And so I said, that sounds great. Let me look into that. And started chatting with the executive chef about it, who was not keen at all because in the, let's say at that time, people thought about American food a little bit like they thought about the English food. It was not [00:27:00] that great, so on. So to actually start. promoting California cuisine, he wasn't very keen on. So I contacted some wineries over there and, , set up, , a tour, to be quite honest with you. And I then took the executive chef to California and we did a whole tour from north to south. We met with different wineries. We had. lunches and dinners and wineries we had in all the top restaurants and it was very, very exciting cuz there was a real change going on. There wasn't any more of the french ca classical cooking and the thick sauce. It was now salsas and lighter style of food. A little bit different in the north of California to the south, but, but still there was definitely a theme where you would bring in some of the Asian influence or some of the Mexican influence. This cuisine was developing was pretty exciting. So by the time we'd done our two week tour, I think the chef was pretty [00:28:00] excited as well. So when we went back during the tour, we'd already arranged to fly chefs from the wineries to London, and also we partnered with the wineries. So the chefs who came over knew how to match the, the wine with the food and what have you.

Sini: Mm-hmm. 

Paul:  We also ended up with the largest California wine list in London at the time. And, , it, it took off pretty well, I have to say. 

Sini: Nice. I just want to sort of take a little detour because it just was, it's such a nice story and you know, obviously it's about the food and the wine, but you had, , a, a moment when you were in California where you'd already sort of thought about the menu design, right? And then sort of it happened in real life for you. 

Paul: One morning. We were staying. And we were staying at Robert Mondavi's, one of his homes. He very kindly gave us this, this cottage to stay in. And, , every morning, because we were eating and drinking quite well, , I would, with, with the executive chef, get up early in the morning and we would go for a [00:29:00] run. And this morning it was a magical scene. We were amongst the vines and the fog was still on the lower levels of, of the vineyards. And then out of the vineyards, we saw the balloons going up and 

Sini: Hot, hot air balloons. 

Paul: Yes, hot, sorry. Hot air balloons, which was an, an amazing sight and I, I don't remember how I found this particular artist, but I found an artist who did sort of naive art, but he ended up doing this drawing of that scene, and we used that on the front cover of our menu in London.

Sini: Nice. Cool. So you're bringing in, , obviously you did that with California in London, then did a big move again to Los Angeles and then started bringing in other countries there. So I, I think you did Thailand. Which other countries did you do there?

Paul:  Malaysia, Indonesia. And Singapore obviously bringing exciting, uh, cuisines and [00:30:00] a bit of the culture.

Sini: Cause you, you worked with each of those countries, sort of tourism boards and things, correct? 

Paul: Correct. Yeah. 

Sini: But did you also have a bit of an eye already on that region yourself or did that come through that experience or later? How did that work?

Paul: That actually came through that experience. 

Sini: Oh, wow. Okay.

Paul: Yeah. So that all, , Developed from a visit from the Malaysian embassy. They came to see us and they wanted to promote Malaysia and they were visiting number of hotels and I explained to them what we could do and we wouldn't do just two or three days. I said, we'll do a two week promotion. I thought, if you're gonna get people investing in this, , promotion, then they wanna longer time. So for example, we got Malaysian Airlines involved and , we then contacted a hotel in Malaysia and I took a chef with me. So we went to Malaysia to really learn firsthand food. And then pick up props and what have you and understand the [00:31:00] culture because the embassy were very, very keen on, on promoting the culture and obviously the food and which was very much, , connected with that.

It was so successful that then I had Thailand, Singapore and Indonesia knocking on the door saying, you know, we want to do a similar thing. And we did. I started flying down with, Different chefs each time to give them experience. But then we became the experts of Asian cuisine and we ended up getting the ASEAN association of Southeast Asians having their meetings with us.

And because we were familiar with the cultures and the food, we started getting rooms from those different, , consulates and embassies. So not only from the food side, we got it from the room side as well. So it was a good spinoff, business wise. 

Sini: You're in Los Angeles, you're working with movie stars, film composers, heads of state at that point, doing these great [00:32:00] festivals, going to different countries. Were there ever moments where you were stopping and going, what is this Somerset boy doing? You know, did, did you do check-ins with yourself? Did you sort of see where you were at that point? 

Paul:  You know, that didn't happen until we, until I went home. When I went back to Somerset, then it kind of hit me. It is like, well, You know, how can I be doing what I'm doing coming from this background to be honestly with you, every time I left Somerset, I would lose a bit of confidence, but regain it once I was back in my position, wherever I was in the world.

Sini: Wow. Yeah. So sort of that, , you know, these days it's called imposter syndrome, where it's just like, yeah, how, how am I good enough to be doing this? But. How did you get yourself ready for, for any of those kind of events where again, you hadn't dealt with that before, whether it was dealing with consults, consulates and things, or dealing with the security of, of VIPs, and how was that, how was that approached?

Paul: I, I, I guess there was this [00:33:00] confidence, but also this can-do attitude, that there was never a thought of failure. It was always, , you know, we're just gonna do this no matter what, and it's a matter of motivating the team around you because you can't do any of this, what I'm talking about on your own. It's a matter of getting buy-in from other people and, and motivating them to support whatever ideas you come up with.

Sini: We've talked about where people had seen the opportunities in you, and obviously you had seen the opportunities in others. , with, with training people taking, taking them, , in the different places, how did any sort of poor or good management throughout your career affect how you were then managing and leading others?

Paul:  I was lucky enough in most cases to have, , some fairly good bosses, but there were the odd one, I have to say, that, , made me feel like . I've gotta learn from this person. I don't want to do what they're doing because I can see what they do to the team H how they could demotivate [00:34:00] people. And I took note of that. So even though you always want to learn from the best, sometimes you learn from the worst and make sure that you don't ever follow their management style. 

Sini: Absolutely. And then you know, you're talking about working with a team. You can't do it alone. How do you look for opportunities for yourself without be making it all about yourself?

Paul:  I think in my career, I mean, I had spent, for example, we're talking about Los Angeles, which was an amazing experience and we, we did stay there, I think five years, which was one of the longer periods to spend in a hotel because Marriott was. Developing so fast worldwide that typically people within the management positions were staying maybe around three years on average. So for me to stay five years was quite long.

Sini: Mm-hmm. 

Paul: But we, we really, or I think as a family, we really enjoyed it there. But I also [00:35:00] was in a hotel, which I knew would be very hard to replicate anywhere else because of the, High profile of whether it's the presidency of United States or movie stars or whatever. It was really a very special and, , hotel. But I also knew that I wanted to go to Asia, so my next step was to go to Hong Kong. 

Sini: By way of a little island. 

Paul: You're right.

Sini: So, so yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about, you know, Bermuda was, again, quite a big move to a very small island, , going into resorts, which I think was, it was your first resort, resort hotel. So, you know, I knew that there were, there are different reasons that we went there. Part of it was career path. Part part of it was getting me ready for going off to, to, to university and whatnot. , what opportunities did you see going into a different type of property in a different, again, a different culture or different area?

Paul:  Mm-hmm. The [00:36:00] opportunity was, Initially that it was a resort, a good size resort, and I thought that would be certainly good for my career. Although there are a number of colleagues telling me, don't do this because the hotel was not performing particularly well financially and , it's maybe not, you know, one of the best moves. But nonetheless, I turned it down initially and I was then asked by the general manager to bring the whole family to Bermuda. So we went over for the interview trip and , I remember us all sitting on the beach and although we love California, sitting on that pink, sandy beach wasn't too bad either.

Sini: Yeah. 

Paul:  So, , we then as a family decided this is maybe not a bad move, so, I think when everybody bought into it, I then accepted the position and then we did move to Bermuda.

Sini: Mm-hmm. Okay. Well, we'll definitely talk about more about Bermuda at some point, but we don't wanna make people too jealous in the first, first uh, episode, [00:37:00] so we're going to Hong Kong again. Such a different culture, different business, really. Again, what were you hoping for? What did you get from that region and what surprised you?

Paul: Well, Marriott had just acquired Renaissance Hotels. So Marriott decided they were going to, form two teams. One was gonna be for China and the other was gonna be for Southeast Asia. So I then got the position of area director of operations for the Southeast Asia team. We're starting from scratch, if you like. It was a new, new team, new new organization and , we had to get to know our country. So I was. Dealing with nine different countries with a multitude of brands and hotels. So that was new and, but very exciting at the same time. So we were based in Hong Kong. We arrived one week after the handover. So Hong Kong initially was included in my region, but within a couple of months [00:38:00] that went to China. 

Sini: Oh, of course. 

Paul: Yeah. So we moved over. So we, we had the office in in Hong Kong, and I was based, or we as a family lived in Hong Kong, but I was traveling outside of Hong Kong. For all the work that I did that was then again, totally different. 

Sini: You were traveling for work more and we're definitely going to talk more about that in, in, in other episodes. I want to talk about taskforce and making work, travel work also just in terms of, of that culture. And it was an opportunity for you to really learn about history and culture of that, of that region as well, I'm guessing.

Paul: Yeah. I mean I was dealing obviously with a multitude of different cultures. Yeah. So, But you know, wherever you are, I think treating people with respect works everywhere. So by doing that, it was quite easy to adapt, if you like. I mean, many of the places found it harder to adapt to my style because. [00:39:00] I didn't want to be called necessarily sir or your highness or whatever, because honestly that happened in, in some countries, , you get a, a person of the level I was then at coming in 

Sini: The suit.

Paul:  The suit, yeah. So you got called all these fancy names. It was like, no, you don't have to call me that. Like, I'm not that. So they had to adjust to me a little bit as much as I had to adjust to those cultures. 

Sini: And why was that? What for you, what was that about? 

Paul: Just making sure that I could get close to the people, so wherever we were, to really understand the culture and to respect the people and the culture. So this then came to us. We were opening hotels in various places or even when we were taking over. Hotels. It was a matter of introducing the Marriott culture, but at the same time, respecting the culture of the country we were in. Yeah. So for an example, , some cultures were not very good on [00:40:00] timing, so they would always come to meetings late and what have you. But I, I had to emphasize that. You know, in our culture within the Marriott culture, we need to be efficient and you need to be on time. We can't waste people's time. So I always started meetings on time. I always started trainings on time, and anybody who came late would miss out. Mm-hmm. And leave me. That changed over time, so they. Began to understand, and again, it's, it's one of the things I want to, to dig deep into later about respect, but mutual respect. , 

Sini: and obviously things like starting meetings on time is, is about that as well, where you don't want to, the people who, you don't wanna waste the time of the people who were on, on time, right.

Paul:  So, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. No, that, that's exactly the point. And, , I think people, they, they began to realize that very soon, but particularly if you do a standup meeting, I mean, in the, in the morning or whenever you did the meeting, standup meetings, it could be 10 minutes. 

Sini: Mm-hmm. 

Paul: So if you came 10 minutes late, you missed all the information. [00:41:00] Yeah. So then they began to realize, well, I. If I wanna be informed, I need to be on time. 

Sini: Right, right. Going to jump quite far ahead now. So you, , retire from, from Marriott. 

Paul: That's right. 

Sini: and then tried some, some other brands and things, so got actually a bit more exposure to other brands and eventually started your own consultancy business.

Paul:  Mm-hmm. 

Sini: What were the opportunities that you were looking for in, in doing that? 

Paul: It was, it was exciting because although probably 80% of what I did was still. Marriott would call me and ask me to do various assignments, but I also got involved with, , other brands, , through ownership. So for example, , I would be contacted, I had to do a transition from Four Seasons to a intercontinental in Dublin, for example.

Sini: Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about what you were actually doing in, in these jobs. 

Paul: Yeah. So that they, I guess majority were where there were. Managers moving on, and there was a gap. So Marriott maybe couldn't [00:42:00] get somebody to go and fill in for three or four months. So they would call me and say, look, could you go to this hotel and be general manager? So that was quite often what I did. But, but also in Venice, I did a transition of management there where we, , in one hotel, , they were transitioning out of one management contract into another. And they asked me to go there, and that was a seven months, , assignment, for example. So it was quite varied, not only by different countries I was going into, , but also some of the jobs that I was doing. But as I was saying, probably 80% of them were more taking over as a temporary gm as a temp. 

Sini: You're saying three, four months for some, there were obviously some, some longer assignments as well. 

Paul: Mm-hmm.

Sini: Could, could be very easy to do the, okay, let's just not rock the boat here. Just let's keep everything sailing along until the, the new manager comes in and usually would, you know, I think when any, any sort [00:43:00] of new management comes in, you expect a bit of a shake up and you know, they bring in their style. You didn't sit back.

Paul:  No. 

Sini: You, you would always come in and do things so, , again, what were you going in to do with, with a team when you would go into a, a hotel or property? 

Paul:  Well, the first thing I would do is, is sit with the execs one-on-one and get to know them and then get to know me, and then I would start with the department heads and do the same thing so they could understand a little bit the way I like to work. And also I get to know them a little bit. And then as I was making changes, , or start to suggest that if we started doing things this way instead of this way, I think we could get the operation to, to run better. That, , you know, you get some buy-in and of course you need some successes, early successes for people to get the confidence that, okay, yes, this makes sense to, to make these changes. So, , it was always, I think occasionally maybe I was going a little [00:44:00] bit too fast because I was always quite excited about making changes or seeing progress. And sometimes I would have to ease back a little bit. But in general, I found that teams were very supportive. 

Sini: Mm-hmm. You'd spend time there and I'm guessing give the, for instance, especially the department heads, The opportunity to have a fresh air and go, I, I don't, I don't think this is working. Or, you know, is there any other way of doing this? How did you present those opportunities? How sort of, was it you create a space, safe space or, you know, how, how does that work?

Paul: I think just by being approachable. You know, I think within the company there was always the Marriott, there was always this policy of an open door policy, but you need to practice it so, you know, make sure that people are comfortable. To come and chat with you and maybe share ideas and so on. So I think being approachable, and I did that by whichever hotel I was in every morning, I would [00:45:00] walk the property and greet people and chat with them. And you know, you put your finger on the pulse, so in other words, you're not just sitting away in an office somewhere. I was very visible and, and very approachable I think. And that's why. I think things could cause when you only have, let's say three or seven months, it sounds a long time, but if you're trying to make changes, it's not a long time. So it means you need to, to move along pretty quickly to, , make an impact. But I always then would communicate this back to. Whoever hired me and let's say Marriott or whoever, that they knew what changes were happening that they would never get blindsided. 

Sini: Mm-hmm. 

Paul:  And, and I felt that was important to communicate up to, to let people know what was happening.

Sini: How did you decide things where it's like, I can just make this happen versus I'd better check back before I make this kind of change. 

Paul: There was very little checking back. It was mostly just, wait a minute, is this this due? And then ask for forgiveness later thing again. Yeah. I, I [00:46:00] think, well, I think I received the Maverick award, I think twice, and that was for always you know, thinking out of the box, just getting things done.

Sini: So, yeah, I guess that was very much that way of just moving, just moving ahead and making it happen. And again, how do you get someone who perhaps, maybe not, they're not resting on their laurels, they're just a bit more cautious. They need a little more time to adjust to something. How do you get them going?

Paul: Get them on board with things. It's just getting to, getting them to buy in, I guess. So maybe giving examples or if we're not gonna do this whole thing, let's start with this and just start with a portion of it and then ease them in slowly so they can see that it works. Right. So that's kind of the approach I think I would take, I would never be doing, we're gonna do this, and that's it. It was never that approach it was more really guiding them along and getting them to buy in, because at the end of the day, If you're forcing something on people, they're not [00:47:00] buying into it. They're never gonna give it their best, and the results are never gonna be what, what you really want. So it's so important to get that buy-in and it may take a little longer, but I think the end result would be better.

Sini: When you were coming into a property and you sort of do want to get things going, how much was a mix of, Hey, I've done this before and it works, versus. Okay. Looks like you guys need this. 

Paul: I don't think I ever really gave examples of what worked in the past. People don't necessarily want to hear that because they may feel that they've been in a property a long time. They know it better than I do. I've only just walked in, so that may be, I felt that that probably wasn't the best way to convince people maybe, so I didn't use that. 

Sini: In the intro, I'd mentioned that you got to work in a lot of exotic places. And you certainly added to the list in, in the years of your consultancy, just looking at the personal side of it, what were you getting out of [00:48:00] those opportunities to, to go to different places?

Paul: I absolutely loved living in places, so I give Venice as an example, I think. Kaija and I, we went to Venice just as a vacation and it was kind of okay, but I, I didn't really think it was anything spectacular, but then I ended up with three assignments in Venice.

Sini: Mm-hmm. 

Paul: And over a period of 18 months. And I absolutely loved it. living as a local and being treated as a local. I mean, I had the locals pass to use the Vaporetto, the water buses, and I was living in an apartment one, the first apartment was on the Grand Canal. And, and when I was doing pretty well as a local and even some of the restaurants I would go in, people got to know me and that was nice cause people love recognition.

But when, when I first arrived in Venice, I think we went into a place and we paid 10 euros for a coffee each. But then I used to walk to work and pop into a bakery with the local stand up and [00:49:00] have a cappuccino and a almond croissant. I paid two euros, 60, something like that. 

Sini: The local, local discount. 

Paul:  Yeah. So that, that became more, it was pretty nice to, to feel like that, that you, you really got to know. So even the alleyways, I didn't have to go on the main alleyways where all the tourists were. I got to know all the little ones and so I could get where I needed to go without having to deal with all the tourists. But, , so yeah, I think by, by living anywhere and really getting to know the culture was always very rewarding. Not just going on vacation, but living there and getting. To really go under the skin a little bit. 

Sini: We'll do a deep dive into mentorship and more in hospitality business. But for now, what, what makes a good leader in your eyes?

Paul:  Well, certainly in the hotel business is being visible. I think you need to be out not only, , from, a customer point of view to make sure that you are meeting customers, but also daily going around and keeping your finger on the pulse by [00:50:00] chatting with. With your, , associates, whether, whether it's in the laundry or in the housekeeping or wherever they work, , sometimes these people wouldn't necessarily see a general manager doing that, and I think that's, that's so important to be visible.

And listen, I always listened a lot. So make sure that you listen to other people's ideas and then, , you know, as, as a team, you can then pick out the best and move forward. So as the leader, you don't always have to come up with all the ideas, but you need to work with your team to get the ideas and then lead them into taking the best decision.

Sini: And then since we are talking about the hospitality business just in general, Little sales pitch for, for the business. What sort of opportunities does the hospitality industry offer to someone? 

Paul:  Well, if you like people, I think it's the right place to work because you get to meet a lot of people, a lot of different cultures, and yes, you've got the [00:51:00] opportunity to, to travel if you want to. Particularly if you are in whites as a chef, you, you can. Work pretty much all over the world. Cause people need chefs. So, , so yes, I really enjoyed the fact that you had all these opportunities of working either a small place or a big place or a big company in different countries. You can work on cruise ships. I mean, when you think about the variety that you can, you can do within the industry, it's pretty exciting. 

Sini: Great. I think that's it. 

Paul: Okay. 

Sini: Thanks so much. 

Paul: Thank you. 

Sini: This is The Lead Story with Sini Downing.